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Breaking New Ground - A Journey in Agri-Communication (w/ Janice Person, CEO - Grounded Communications)

Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:00:00]:

Every entrepreneur needs to be an excellent communicator. It's not enough to love what we do, we need to explain to others why we're committed to a certain goal. But what if you work in an industry that's long been misunderstood? What if you're trying to effect change in an industry like agriculture? When Janice Person told her New York friends in the nineties about farm to table, they had no idea what she was talking about. It seems impossible today, but a few short decades ago no one outside of the agriculture industry knew much about the farm to table movement or really anything happening in the agriculture industry at large. Even with the journalism and communications Grounded, Janice found it all pretty difficult to explain to outsiders. And once the public eventually did start taking an interest in where their food came from, she found it tough to share the perspectives of a minority group that we don't think about very often, the farmers who grow it. When Janice started out, she was doing PR for the agrochemical juggernaut, Monsanto. But it wasn't your typical corporate environment.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:01:07]:

At Monsanto, she was given tools and resources to amplify the voices of farmers, a goal she's still pursuing today through her podcast, Grounded by the Farm and her company, Grounded Communications. To hear Janice talk about farming is to learn what it means to speak with passion and conviction about your business. She finds connection points between farmers and consumers that anyone can relate to, bringing seemingly unrelatable issues to the table in a way that makes sense. And she's a great teacher for anyone who wants to sharpen the tools in their communications toolkit. This week, I spoke with Janice about her time working in the agriculture industry. What has she learned about communicating key issues about farming to people who know nothing about it? Why she's so passionate about agricultural advocacy, and what can we learn from Janice when it comes to talking about our own businesses. I'm Katherin Vasilopoulos, and this is And So She Left, the podcast about incredible women entrepreneurs and the wisdom they gained beyond the corporate world. Today, Janice is recognized as a consumer outreach pioneer among her peers in the food and farming spaces.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:02:38]:

She's even been inducted into the Communications Hall of Fame for the work she's done over the past few decades. But back when she was starting out, Janice was a college graduate who was, like many of us, simply looking for work.


Janice Person [00:02:52]:

I came out of college with a journalism, mass communications background and had some internships at some trade magazines in agriculture. And I worked there through grad school, then went for a PR agency in New York, worked at a PR agency there for a few years, and got a chance to work in house for a small company. And then it was purchased by a really big company called Monsanto, And I joined Monsanto in that, purchase. I went through the a or b, whichever options I might wanna do. I've always done PR and communications, and my career has primarily been in agriculture. At Monsanto, I was able to do a lot of things that were really different. It was a it's not the kind of corporate world people tend to think of. So I was able to build really cool things, do different things.


Janice Person [00:03:45]:

I spoke at South by Southwest. I really led a part of agriculture that was trying to reach out to people in the general public that were interested in food, that were eating, that were hearing things about agriculture, but not hearing from farmers. And so I get to help make that change and do big things like South by. Ultimately, Monsanto sold out to somebody else. And in that process, I started doing my a and b options and really decided I wanted to go out and do something different. I am later in my career, so this is kind of to bridge me to my retirement.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:04:25]:



Janice Person [00:04:26]:

Okay. Given me the flexibility to do whatever I want.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:04:30]:

It's interesting to me that you you have all this corporate experience, you have PR experience, and you you're, you know, you're a graduate of journalism, but you're you've always been also in the agricultural sphere.


Janice Person [00:04:41]:

I used to live in New York at a time when nobody talked about farming or how food was grown. Right? Like Right. People used to not think about that at all, And then suddenly, there was so much interest. And so I've been able to be part of how that shows up and how we kind of get more involved in that conversation.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:05:00]:

What was the the moment that triggered you to to leave?


Janice Person [00:05:03]:

Part of it was just thinking through what I wanted to do next. The work that I was doing at Monsanto was going away. That was clear when we started the merger. And so then the question was, what do you wanna do next? Then whether it was inside the company or outside, I had to figure it out. And in that process, I had started blogging, you know, years ago Person on the weekends and stuff and thought, well, you know, let's just see what an entrepreneurial journey might look like. And so I took a a 6 month program, where I built through kind of a business plan and really gave myself a chance to really deep think it out. And ultimately, about 9 or 10 months later, I decided it was the time to leave.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:05:50]:

Mhmm. Okay. Right off the bat, like, what were your major challenges?


Janice Person [00:05:54]:

Also, I started in 2019, and I thought my challenges were gonna be really different than they were, but then it was COVID. I mean, I Right. I think it's a pretty, you know, common challenge for people that started their businesses when I did. Luckily, I had a lot of online experience. You know, I told you I'd already been blogging and things like that, and I had, the benefit of an incredibly large network. So whereas I thought I was gonna be in deep trouble trying to figure out where to go, I found various, you know, former colleagues and staff who had project work that needed to be done. And so I was able to fill in on various startups would hire me, various colleagues that had also left the business or now at new companies, they were hiring me, that kind of thing. So it ended up going really well.


Janice Person [00:06:45]:

I had thought my primary job would be doing some of the public speaking I had done.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:06:51]:



Janice Person [00:06:52]:

And that's just really coming back for a course, you know, in the past year.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:06:57]:

You know, you you start off a business and then you think it's gonna go one way and then a big wrench gets thrown in like a a pandemic, and it interferes with something that is as people oriented as public speaking, where you just can't do that, and all of your plans get shot down, I'm sure, where you have to pivot and then figure out what do I need to do until we're able to all get back together again.


Janice Person [00:07:18]:

Exactly. One of the things I was really, I think was really formative for me, I've always been trying to build new skill sets. And so when I started my own business, I started a podcast in part because I just wanted to learn how to do it. 9 months into COVID, I was hired to do a podcast for somebody else because I had already shown clearly I could do that. Mhmm. I already knew the same network of people. Right? So part of my experience being in agriculture is I have a really good rapport with a lot of farmers and


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:07:50]:



Janice Person [00:07:51]:

I know a lot of people, even in the great white north.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:07:54]:

You know, you said you were living in New York for a long time, and that's, you know, a big metropolis with lots of restaurants and and people who are conscientious about where the food comes from, but they're not actually participating in growing the food and this whole movement of like farm to table or farm to fork and all that. Is that like the buzzwords that you kept hearing over and over?


Janice Person [00:08:14]:

You know, it's funny. I lived in New York in the nineties, and nobody in New York was talking about farm to table at the time. It's it's very weird. As a matter of fact, when I would introduce myself, I frequently just stopped mentioning agriculture and farmers because people would look at me like I was insane. So I'd say I work in public relations. A few years later when I was living in rural part of the Katherin Mississippi and I'd go back to visit friends in New York, they would all wanna know everything about farming. So it's been this radical shift where part of the interest of the planet in how food is grown really came on strong in the early 2000s, I'd say.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:08:59]:

Tell me about that experience of working with the farmers. Like, what what did you learn exactly?


Janice Person [00:09:05]:

You know, the first farm I ever went on totally changed my life, and I just never left the business. The gentleman showed me a spade full, a shovel full of dirt, and he started talking to me about what you can see when you really look at the soil and what he was working on in terms of building the soil's life systems. And that was, like, in the eighties. Like Yeah. Now everybody wants to talk about soil health and what that delivers to the foods that we're harvesting and and things like that. But, so he just showed me like a a shovel full of soil and started talking to me about what he could do to make that soil better for his son when he took over the farm. And now that gentleman is in his nineties and he's still been you know, he still takes me out and shows me the fields, talks to me about how much he's improved the soils. But his son and now his grandchildren are looking at the same thing.


Janice Person [00:10:00]:

And so I think there's so much common ground there. It's just not many people have had the exposure to talk to farmers other than people at the farmers market, maybe.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:10:11]:

How have things evolved in the industry? You know, you're saying about the eighties and then things evolved into the 2 1,000 and the Communications started changing. What have you seen change?


Janice Person [00:10:21]:

So inside agriculture, it's amazing, that it seems like this force from the outside of change. But it really if you're working inside agriculture, you've been seeing it all along. Like I mentioned, his the first interview I did was in the eighties, and we were talking about the health of the soil. Right? Not a lot of people knew that outside of agriculture though. Okay. And so what you see in agriculture is constant progress. They're always looking to do better than they have in the past. And part of that is really this feeling of legacy and knowing that once you leave, your children are gonna need to make the best of.


Janice Person [00:11:01]:

So how can you make it better for them? And then the same for your grandchildren. And so there's always new practices and new products and things like that, but farmers keep their mindset on what can I do to not only pay the bills now, but really have that long term positive impact?


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:11:21]:

I see. I see. And so this newfound you know, we have all these new media now with podcasting and blogging and all that. Do you find that there's a lot of interaction with your readers, your listeners? Like, what kind of feedback do you get from them?


Janice Person [00:11:34]:

You know, it's kind of wild. Early on in social media and things, we saw a lot more interaction than we do today. A lot of farmers are on social media and actually I was part of a a group that created a nonprofit geared at helping farmers understand how to use the tools so they could all tell their own stories. But what I found in the last several years is really sad to me in this polarization of people, not only on politics, but on almost everything. Right?


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:12:04]:



Janice Person [00:12:05]:

And so often people stay to sort of their own. And so part of what I've been trying to do with Grounded by the Farm is find other ways to reach out to out to people, find other ways to to go about it. So I've created educational materials, make it easy to share it with students, and all kinds of things. I find people are really interested when they find it. It's just getting out of their norm to find something different is usually the biggest impediment, I guess.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:12:38]:

Let's go back a little bit and see, if you can flesh out a little bit more your original story at Monsanto and also your your experience with the magazine in New York. I wanna get more insight into what your mindset was like also.


Janice Person [00:12:53]:

Yeah. So I the magazine was actually in Memphis, Tennessee. I was working for a PR agency in New York. It was really nice. It was a small agency. They're still in business. They're an agency that specializes in agriculture and other, you know, sort of b to b kind of things. Mhmm.


Janice Person [00:13:13]:

I was able to go in and have a different level of background than some of them. Since it was in New York, there were a lot of people who were going to school at Cornell and other major agricultural universities and things.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:13:26]:



Janice Person [00:13:26]:

But I had the southern accent. So


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:13:29]:

Oh, okay.


Janice Person [00:13:30]:

It makes a difference when you're calling cotton farmers or peanut farmers to sometimes be able to actually sound familiar. So I I was really well received up there, quite frankly. God, how much experience you can get when you're working for an agency. You know, you're working so incredibly hard and you're getting to move around to a lot of different topics and you're around other people who write, take photos, all those things. So, you're always coaching each other. It was a perfect place to be right after grad school for me. Right.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:14:08]:

The richness of all of these disciplines coming together, and it's it's wonderful. It's new. It's exciting.


Janice Person [00:14:14]:

Yeah. And and then I ended up moving back to the south and and went into a a smaller company in part because, it was nice to go back to something more familiar to the south. My mom had gotten sick, and so I was able to be just 2 hours from her, And that was nice for a while. I was the only professional communicator, so it was like topsy-turvy from where I'd been before.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:14:39]:



Janice Person [00:14:39]:

So I was the expert on almost everything, and I would be asked to write even things like a manual on how to grow cotton, working with the experts in that field. Right? But you have to be able to we used to talk about me having to get a decoder ring out because some of these PhDs in plant pathology, plant physiology talk at such a high level. It would make me crazy. But I also had experience then of being able to do employee communications, be able to represent the company at the New York stock exchange, those kind of stockholder meetings in New York.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:15:15]:

Yes. What was that like going into a room full of people who dealt with the stock exchange?


Janice Person [00:15:20]:

I always loved going back up there because I'd get to I'd get to be in New York and see friends and all that kind of stuff, but it was very different to be going with the CEO of the company and the chief financial officer and representing the company at these kind of conferences, where, you know, especially large institutional holders and things like that that would have a lot of questions for the company.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:15:46]:

I see. I see. Okay. And at any point, did you have any difficult emotional moments? And then you're thinking, okay, I need to step out of this?


Janice Person [00:15:56]:

No. I think, you know, it's been interesting. Some of the kinds of things I had to do were issues management. And working especially for a small company at that time, my later when I came into Monsanto, there were different kinds of issues. But when I was with that smaller company going with the CEO and stuff, it was so easy to handle because you knew everybody in the company. It was only 600 people around the world. Even the forklift drivers knew who I was. Right? Yeah.


Janice Person [00:16:25]:

Inside Monsanto, it was, you know, it was thousands upon thousands of people. So when I came in here, it was a little bit different when I was working there. And you have to learn, you know, sort of what is your area of expertise and focus. In a company like Monsanto, though, I found you could find those areas of free rein once you've proven yourself and once people understand how what a trusted resources you could be. So, I ended up being able to create new areas of of the business, actually, working with others in the company to create this whole area of consumer outreach and sort of working to talk to people, sometimes that meant really uncomfortable conversations because some people really disliked the company. I would say hated the company. Some people had a fear of what was in their food, and it could be tense trying to talk to some of those people at times. I never felt like I was physically gonna be at risk or anything like that, but sometimes I would be in a a room where farmers might feel like somebody's about to punch me.


Janice Person [00:17:29]:

And occasionally, I would have, like, a cowboy saddle up and get in between me and somebody. But part of that was why we were having the conversations is to try and help people find ways to release that energy, that that negative sensation of outrage really prevents you from being able to think clear headedly. You know, my job was to stand there and Person. And if at some point they thought that, you know, I might be able to offer them some advice, I might say, would you mind if I tell you a little something I learned? When they'd see somebody who's actually trying to have a conversation with them and not just read off talking points Mhmm.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:18:10]:



Janice Person [00:18:11]:

It really did help us change conversations with some people at times. And I never want people to be afraid of their food. Like, oh my god. Now if you have an allergy, there's a reason for your fear, but you also need to be rational for being able to manage that. I get that it's really scary. I have nephews with serious food allergies and


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:18:31]:



Janice Person [00:18:31]:

You know, and Yes. I've I've I've about lost my mind over shrimp.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:18:35]:

People are sensitive about their food. It is an incredible topic of conversation and


Janice Person [00:18:41]:

It's deeply emotional.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:18:42]:

It is emotional. Absolutely.


Janice Person [00:18:44]:

It is. And, and I don't ever wanna take the emotion out of food. I mean, nothing makes me happier than to have dinner at my mom's house and she fixes me my favorite meal because I've come to visit. Right? But the parts about how it's produced in some of that are also very rational. We can't expect farmers to be growing our food for us and not be able to pay their bills and be able to send their kids to college and stuff. Right? Like That's


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:19:09]:



Janice Person [00:19:10]:

Like, we have to find a way to do all the things that we want done. And that's what people in agriculture are always trying to do. They're they're looking at that long term, but they're also looking at the stake on the plate at the end of the night or whatever it is. Right? So I've been lucky to be able to be in that space of bridging those things.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:19:29]:

We want it to be a sustainable industry for the people who work in it as well so that they can have a legacy for their children. As you said, you know, send them to college. And what what happens to the next generation? Because we don't wanna deter people from becoming farmers because then what happens? We don't have anyone to grow our food.


Janice Person [00:19:46]:

Right. If you look at the world today in our part of the world, in the west Mhmm. Farmers typically are pretty much older. You know? I think the average in the US is probably around 60. That holds a a lot of worry for me. That age has been getting older and older, and the percentage of people that are farming has been getting smaller and smaller over the years. And so people like me, if we can do things to help others understand where farmers are coming from when it's a small, small number I mean, it's hard to think of farmers as a minority because so so many of them are white guys. Yes.


Janice Person [00:20:24]:

Yes. But they are a minority. They're like 2% of the US population are farmers.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:20:31]:

Oh, wow. That's low.


Janice Person [00:20:32]:

It's a very low percentage. Right? It's less than Person, and I want more people of color, more women, all of those things, farming, but we also have to be realistic about what it takes to get in. And I think when you're in an entrepreneurial space, we think really hard about what kind of money did I wanna have in savings before I took this leap. And I think farmers have to think about that as well, and they're also thinking, do I need to buy another $500,000 combine?


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:21:08]:

Tell me about when you started your business. You went from being a worker to now being your own boss. And what does that feel like now to be your own boss?


Janice Person [00:21:18]:

So it feels great for a little while. And then you start wondering, Marea, the rest of that business is gonna come from.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:21:26]:

Yes. Yes.


Janice Person [00:21:27]:

You know, you start thinking really quickly about, oh, wait a minute, am I gonna be able to do this or that? And it really, for me, took a different turn with COVID was really when it snapped. I thought I had all the options in the world before that.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:21:44]:



Janice Person [00:21:45]:

And it can be intimidating to every month know that you're the one that has to bring the money in. It's also very motivating. So it just depends on how you look at it, right? But I my niece is starting a business. She's 21.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:22:00]:



Janice Person [00:22:00]:

And we've been having these conversations a lot recently. Like, does she need an accountant? Because she knows I have an accountant. And I'm like, well, here's why I need an accountant. Here are things every business needs to do. I don't know if you think that means you need an accountant.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:22:16]:

And that's important. We have to do all those extra admin things because if we don't do them, nobody will do it for us. And that's super important.


Janice Person [00:22:24]:

I'd like to think I knew all of that coming in to starting a business. Yeah. And I guess intellectually you do, but you don't understand how it's gonna impact the hours that you have to do the other work


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:22:37]:



Janice Person [00:22:38]:

And all of those kind of pieces. Right? So it it was a bit more of a shock than I thought it would be. And I think sometimes on social media, entrepreneurship gets so misrepresented.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:22:49]:

How so? What what do you see?


Janice Person [00:22:51]:

You know, there are so many ads that tell you you can make, you know, 6 figures in 30 days


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:22:57]:



Janice Person [00:22:57]:

you just do this one thing. Right? Right. And and I'm just like, oh gosh. That sounds lovely. I wanna make a difference in the world too. So I don't know that I'll ever get to take the short bath.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:23:08]:

That's right.


Janice Person [00:23:09]:

It's not like I don't wanna make money, but I I don't know that it always works for everybody.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:23:14]:

It's always the long game, and you have to put in an honest day's work to get to that result. And I think that what you're telling me is that you are obviously on that path and that you are trying to make a huge difference by maintaining this communication line open with the people who are important in our food supply. You're obviously continuing these conversations with farmers, but also with the people who are reading your blogs and are consuming your content. What's that like?


Janice Person [00:23:43]:

So now I I get to go out and, like, one of the things I get to do is teach storytelling. Right? Storytelling as a principle is something that I think is just amazing, and we all love to read children's books or a lot of us love to read children's books, but we don't typically think about how to tell our own stories in ways that will really captivate others. A lot of times, it just becomes kind of rote. Oh, yeah. And I milk the cows every day at 5 AM. And then, yeah, we have to worry about the feed. Yeah. You know, you can talk about it like that or you can go, can you imagine getting up every day at 5 AM to feed the cows? Get them milked, all those kind of things every day, no matter what, because the cows are there.


Janice Person [00:24:28]:

It's like having a dog that you need to let out every morning. Helping people in agriculture learn to tell that story and make it more interesting for their listeners when it's still really authentic to them. Right? Like Yeah. I'm not asking anybody to, in any way, color what they're saying, but just think about how the listener might be more drawn into something and want to hear more about it. That's probably the best path for me. I love it.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:24:58]:

Yeah. And as humans, we're we're drawn to stories. We are not drawn to just dry facts or bullet points. We wanna hear the


Janice Person [00:25:06]:

story. Right. So, you know, a lot of people are interested in sort of what we typically call it, Indian corn or something, you know, blue corn, heritage corns, all that kind of stuff. Well, you know, if I go out and I'm talking to somebody who's growing it on the rez, who their family got seed from somebody decades ago and they've been maintaining that seed, you know, when you have that conversation with people, first off, it's a conversation that really matters to a large part of the public, but it's also something that really matters for farmers to be understood and that that this is really something they hold dear, like holding on to their way of life and their family's way of life is really important to them. Yes. And creating that connection and understanding for folks, it's the sweet spot.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:25:54]:

Absolutely. Not everyone has that urban experience. There's there's a segment of the population. They live not on the coasts. They're growing our food. They are taking care of the Janice. And it is an entire commitment, 7 days a week.


Janice Person [00:26:10]:



Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:26:15]:

I wanted to ask you about any advice that you got along the way and any advice that you may have for upcoming entrepreneurs who are thinking about making that leap out of corporate into into their own enterprise?


Janice Person [00:26:27]:

So I think as you're looking at corporate and you decide maybe it's not your fit anymore or whatever it is, thinking about the skills that you've developed while you're in corporate and how they may be able to serve your business is a really good sort of introspection to go into. But then I think you also want to take time to go, what other skill sets do I either need to build or how do I augment them? Mhmm. But I'd say it's also really critical for you to keep those kind of development skills on things that can take you to the next level. So I try and have a development goal every year for myself as an entrepreneur. Nobody else is gonna do that for me. Right? So if I wanna continue to build my business, grow stronger, grow better, How am I gonna do that if I'm not thinking about what do I need to know next? So adding to your skill set and identifying holes is is one of those pieces that really served me well when I left corporate.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:27:29]:

That's amazing. I like that because you've always been the person who keeps acquiring skills. It sounds like you're a lifelong learner and that you will always be that, just based on the fact that you're in content development too. That's the typical profile of someone who just wants to keep learning.


Janice Person [00:27:44]:

I think there's some things to be said for finding what resources you have locally and finding out how to tap those. So I told you I took a 6 month program for entrepreneurs looking to get into the business. It was through a women's business center. And so that was something it didn't cost me a whole lot of money, but I had access to amazing people at major corporations like Wells Fargo that were involved in teaching the courses and helping you really learn. The other thing is, is it helped me find that there are like libraries that have research librarians who will sit there and help me when I am going, you know, I'd love to be able to do this next, but I'm trying to figure out how do I define that audience? How do I find that audience in the St. Louis region or something? So finding those kind of resources, we have, you know, like legal clinics or whatever it is, find those things that you can also access locally. And for me, I have a business bestie. We talk every Friday.


Janice Person [00:28:47]:

Occasionally, we take a week off during the holidays or something, but we track each other's goals and our progress and we talk about what's going wrong and finding somebody to do that with when you're an entrepreneur really helps me. I'm too extroverted to be, you know, a one person all the time kinda world. I love working with other people. Some people are more introverted, but having that trusting conversation on a regular basis with somebody and you may not be a family member. You know what? You may need somebody that has a little more objectivity.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:29:20]:

And they're not emotionally involved in what it is that you're doing so they can just be a sounding board and say, hey, what what did you think about this or what have you thought about that? Yeah.


Janice Person [00:29:30]:

Exactly. Yeah. It's like it's it's totally made it easier for me. She and I met in that entrepreneurial program. Oh, nice. So it ended up just being a perfect kind of setup for the 2 of us. She does services as well, so we work well together. If you can start finding those people before you leave your day job, it works really well for me.


Janice Person [00:29:51]:

I'm not sure it's for everybody, but even if it's just doing some evening networking where you start learning what else may be in your area to offer those supports, it can really help you get that confidence of it is the right time to make a move.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:30:08]:

Thank you so much to Janice Person. You can learn more about Grounded Communications through the link in the episode description. If you like the show, please rate, review, and subscribe to And So, She Left wherever you listen. Your feedback helps us to better serve current listeners and reach new ones. Head over to for full episodes, transcripts, Communications form to be on the show, a list of upcoming guests, and more. And so she left is made by Cansulta and Ethan Lee. Cansulta connects entrepreneurs and leaders with a global roster of over 150 pre vetted consultants and experts like Ethan and I who can help organizations in any business area from HR to finance to sales and marketing and even communications. We'll be back next Wednesday with a new episode.


Katherin Vasilopoulos [00:30:55]:

Our music is by Correspondence and Chris Zabriskie edited for your enjoyment. You can find a list of all the songs you heard here in the episode notes. I'm Katherin Vasilopoulos, and thanks for listening.

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